My Citroen XM 3.0 PR-Vestige
- MTXM
- Citroen God!
- Posts: 4895
- Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:45 pm
- Location: Aylsham Norfolk
Re: My Citroen XM 3.0 PR-Vestige
After looking at previous posts I see you have tried toothed belts Dean so my comments are not that helpful!! Regards,Matthew T.
1989 V6 Exclusive (Poland car) - Now living in a local Motor Museum!
1990 V6sei auto (grey auto)
1990 V6sei manual (gold car)
1990 V6.24 Pallas (Germany car)
1990 V6.24v (Scotland car)
Other previous XM sold and broken too many to mention!
1990 V6sei auto (grey auto)
1990 V6sei manual (gold car)
1990 V6.24 Pallas (Germany car)
1990 V6.24v (Scotland car)
Other previous XM sold and broken too many to mention!
-
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 13792
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:44 pm
Re: My Citroen XM 3.0 PR-Vestige
My V6-24 has a toothed belt. Perhaps that's not a reliable statement as it squeaks due to being loose.
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White
- Dean
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 6116
- Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:53 am
- Location: Isle of wight
Re: My Citroen XM 3.0 PR-Vestige
The solid belt did seem to be much better and long lived than the toothed belts, in fact, it may have been another tow home had i been using a toothed belt so i will be using my other solid belt when the root of the cause is cured, just got to wait on my new pressure gauge and then i can have a good look and see what is going on.
D
D
92 Citroen XM Prestige 3.0i Auto R.P5678
14 Mitsubishi L200 Trojan
89 Talbot Express 2.0 coach built Auto-trail Chinook
Addicted to Crackanory
14 Mitsubishi L200 Trojan
89 Talbot Express 2.0 coach built Auto-trail Chinook
Addicted to Crackanory
- White Exec
- Citroen God!
- Posts: 6642
- Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:38 pm
- Orga / RP numbers: RP7165
1996 2.5TD saloon, Exclusive, Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime, Sable Phenicien - Location: ex-Ealing, Cheshire, W.Sussex & Surrey. Now living in Sayalonga (Malaga, Spain)
Re: My Citroen XM 3.0 PR-Vestige
For normal drive purposes and loads V-toothed and V-solid belts are interchangeable.
The advantage of the toothed belt is that it can be more easily wrapped around small diameters (small pulleys - eg alternator), and operate without so much heating due to flexing. Toothed belts are usually less likely to squeak, because less surface area is moving over the polished pulley.
I'm guessing that your current set-up Dean is severely overloading the belt, to the point of rapid destruction.
As you said much earlier, the pump unloaded sends fluid back to the reservoir without problem, so it cannot be tightness or slop in the pump preventing it rev freely. Must therefore be excessive hydraulic load, either by too high a regulator pressure setting, or failure of the regulator to allow excess pressure bleed off back to the reservoir (eg a jammed pressure relief mechanism, or blocked return path).
Brakes and steering working more-or-less ok 'downstream' suggest regulator is set to a pressure which will operate these things ok . . . although I have no idea how much excess pressure the downstream system might take. Possible the regulator is supplying an acceptable figure, but bleed-off back to the reservoir isn't happening adequately, so pressure (pump load) builds up.
The system is not designed to have the pump pumping against a solid obstruction. The pump is capable of moving a lot of fluid into the steering - when it demands it - and a much smaller amount of fluid into the suspension and brakes. When the steering is not calling for its large fluid flow, that flow has to be able to go somewhere (back to the reservoir) - it cannot just be blocked off or obstructed. That's my understanding of it, anyway.
The advantage of the toothed belt is that it can be more easily wrapped around small diameters (small pulleys - eg alternator), and operate without so much heating due to flexing. Toothed belts are usually less likely to squeak, because less surface area is moving over the polished pulley.
I'm guessing that your current set-up Dean is severely overloading the belt, to the point of rapid destruction.
As you said much earlier, the pump unloaded sends fluid back to the reservoir without problem, so it cannot be tightness or slop in the pump preventing it rev freely. Must therefore be excessive hydraulic load, either by too high a regulator pressure setting, or failure of the regulator to allow excess pressure bleed off back to the reservoir (eg a jammed pressure relief mechanism, or blocked return path).
Brakes and steering working more-or-less ok 'downstream' suggest regulator is set to a pressure which will operate these things ok . . . although I have no idea how much excess pressure the downstream system might take. Possible the regulator is supplying an acceptable figure, but bleed-off back to the reservoir isn't happening adequately, so pressure (pump load) builds up.
The system is not designed to have the pump pumping against a solid obstruction. The pump is capable of moving a lot of fluid into the steering - when it demands it - and a much smaller amount of fluid into the suspension and brakes. When the steering is not calling for its large fluid flow, that flow has to be able to go somewhere (back to the reservoir) - it cannot just be blocked off or obstructed. That's my understanding of it, anyway.
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003
- raynoon
- Could do a 2.1 headgasket
- Posts: 1128
- Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:38 am
- Orga / RP numbers: 6043
- Location: Merseyside
Re: My Citroen XM 3.0 PR-Vestige
At the risk of sounding silly.... could it be a bearing inside the HP pump? Maybe once it's warm the bearing is heating up, expanding and seizing, causing the pulley to not run and the belt to slip? Again, apologies if this has been mentioned already.
1993 Citroen XM 2.1 turboSD auto
1995 Citroen XM 2.1TD Auto EXCLUSIVE
1995 Citroen XM 2.1TD Auto EXCLUSIVE
- MTXM
- Citroen God!
- Posts: 4895
- Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:45 pm
- Location: Aylsham Norfolk
Re: My Citroen XM 3.0 PR-Vestige
If I was Dean I would certainly be trying another pump, although I agree that the system pressure and any obstructions to the movement of fluid may also need to be checked! With regards, Matthew T.
1989 V6 Exclusive (Poland car) - Now living in a local Motor Museum!
1990 V6sei auto (grey auto)
1990 V6sei manual (gold car)
1990 V6.24 Pallas (Germany car)
1990 V6.24v (Scotland car)
Other previous XM sold and broken too many to mention!
1990 V6sei auto (grey auto)
1990 V6sei manual (gold car)
1990 V6.24 Pallas (Germany car)
1990 V6.24v (Scotland car)
Other previous XM sold and broken too many to mention!
- Dean
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 6116
- Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:53 am
- Location: Isle of wight
Re: My Citroen XM 3.0 PR-Vestige
When I got home last time with no belt I stopped and turned the pump, it turned freely by hand but was difficult to turn at speed, when turned at speed there was a hissing sound that appeared to be coming from the flexi pipe section between the regulator and flow valve, this was difficult to pin down though as turning the pump at speed and sticking my head down the side of the engine at the same time wasn't really possible, it does not do this unless it is hot and been driven a good few miles.
The noise was coming from that area though, I do have a video of the noise I took to ponder over later I could post up later.
Hoping my new gauge turns up today and I can test the regulator output to see if anything is going on there, also want to blow through the flex pipe.
D
The noise was coming from that area though, I do have a video of the noise I took to ponder over later I could post up later.
Hoping my new gauge turns up today and I can test the regulator output to see if anything is going on there, also want to blow through the flex pipe.
D
92 Citroen XM Prestige 3.0i Auto R.P5678
14 Mitsubishi L200 Trojan
89 Talbot Express 2.0 coach built Auto-trail Chinook
Addicted to Crackanory
14 Mitsubishi L200 Trojan
89 Talbot Express 2.0 coach built Auto-trail Chinook
Addicted to Crackanory
- Dean
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 6116
- Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:53 am
- Location: Isle of wight
Re: My Citroen XM 3.0 PR-Vestige
Bit hard to make out, especially since the sound seems to go funny when uploading to youtube but you can hear the restricted fluid flow type noise.
https://youtu.be/ZVHCUvADLp4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
D
https://youtu.be/ZVHCUvADLp4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
D
92 Citroen XM Prestige 3.0i Auto R.P5678
14 Mitsubishi L200 Trojan
89 Talbot Express 2.0 coach built Auto-trail Chinook
Addicted to Crackanory
14 Mitsubishi L200 Trojan
89 Talbot Express 2.0 coach built Auto-trail Chinook
Addicted to Crackanory
- White Exec
- Citroen God!
- Posts: 6642
- Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:38 pm
- Orga / RP numbers: RP7165
1996 2.5TD saloon, Exclusive, Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime, Sable Phenicien - Location: ex-Ealing, Cheshire, W.Sussex & Surrey. Now living in Sayalonga (Malaga, Spain)
Re: My Citroen XM 3.0 PR-Vestige
Dean, I keep forgetting you have an FDV in circuit (after the 5-piston pump).
Could that be blocking?
Just had a look at Peter Russek XM manual, which gives info about this set-up.
Says that 5-piston pump is capable of more-or-less unlimited pressure output . . . so an obstruction downstream of it would make it extremely hard to turn.
PM'd you a Russek link (you probably have it already).
Could that be blocking?
Just had a look at Peter Russek XM manual, which gives info about this set-up.
Says that 5-piston pump is capable of more-or-less unlimited pressure output . . . so an obstruction downstream of it would make it extremely hard to turn.
PM'd you a Russek link (you probably have it already).
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003
-
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 5925
- Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:11 am
Re: My Citroen XM 3.0 PR-Vestige
Citroen added flow restrictors in some of the hydraulic pipes and fittings.
These varied by engine type and by model as evolution took place.
The external appearance and fit can be identical while the parts are incompatible.
Examples are flow restrictors moving from pipes to blocks and use of double wall pipes.
There is no marking or list of these variations.
This can make pipe and component swapping difficult.
I found the early model restrictor move in the Tech Notes.
The other restrictors have only come to light when cutting in for replacement pipe.
John
These varied by engine type and by model as evolution took place.
The external appearance and fit can be identical while the parts are incompatible.
Examples are flow restrictors moving from pipes to blocks and use of double wall pipes.
There is no marking or list of these variations.
This can make pipe and component swapping difficult.
I found the early model restrictor move in the Tech Notes.
The other restrictors have only come to light when cutting in for replacement pipe.
John