Citroen XM Forum

The only way is up indeed.

A lot of XMs in use are coming to the end of their useful lives, and many will fail MOTs on serious rust, and not be repaired.

More enthusiasts are coming out of the wood work for restoration projects and buying good cars to use as classics.

I'm entering this debate a little later than the serious prosletyzers, but although not a committed Francophile, I'm one of those mentioned in despatches that has always yearned for an XM on the basis of its style, imaginative engineering, ride quality and, yes, weirdness, owned an expensively troublesome one some years ago and swore I'd never buy another until I could afford a 'good' one, which I did last year. In the opinions of some, my motives were and remain arguably dubious, but I don't care. And although no engineer and forced by circumstance to run it on a meagre budget - which in some respects seems to separate me from many who use this forum - I shall carry on until I really, really can't afford to. (Should anyone be interested in my broader views on this, particularly in the light of my car's recent vandalisation, by all means cast an eye over my latest blog, 'Heroes and Villains', at http://www.markswill.wordpress.com and the many interesting comments which followed it.)

Whether or not the XM will become a bona fide classic in the way that the DS/ID did is of course the moot point of this thread, and I would say the answer is a probable, if regrettable 'No'. After all, CX values remain stubbornly low. And the reason for this is that the car was insufficiently developed, built using many poor quality components (especially electrics) to try and keep it in the same price bracket as its less complicated (if less satisfying) middle-management market rivals from BMW, Mercedes, Saab, Audi and even Alfa with their 164.

This maybe a gloomy prognosis for those who love the XM and even more so for those harbouring the (vain) hope that they may soon start to appreciate in price, but I speak with the experience of another flawed and insufficiently developed and spec'd luxury car, a Lancia Gamma. Both the Gamma saloon and especially the Coupe (the model which I own) soon revealed themselves to be poorly built, unreliable and costly to repair and maintain professionally. But like the XM, once their basic flaws have been remedied, they are great cars if properly, which invariably means expensively, maintained - if still a little fragile. But used values hit the floor whilst they were still in production (ending in 1982) and have consequently never attained the steadily rising prices of their contemporary marques and models, e.g. the BMW 635, Mercedes 230, Lotus Excel, a few decades later.

And sadly, the same fate awaits the XM. It may get to the point where, like the Gammas, just a few dozen are doggedly kept running by those who appreciate them - and as well as good-looking, they are great cars to drive, but because of their complexity and the difficulty of finding parts, even this may not prove to be the case. Why or how on earth Citroen thought they could get away launching another sophisticated, if complex luxury saloon, i.e. the C6, that ignored the commercial lessons of the XM's failings, just beggars belief, but they did and I'm willing to bet that in ten years time the owners of the few C6s that are still extant will be suffering from the same scrap vs. sell-for-a-pittance vs. spend-a-fortune-to-keep-running dilemma that is the subtext of this thread.

It's a sorry state of affairs, but thank heavens for those in the know who pass on their superior wisdom and experience to the rest of us via this forum, whatever our motives for loving these cars.

And although no engineer and forced by circumstance to run it on a meagre budget - which in some respects seems to separate me from many who use this forum

Its a funny thing you know, almost all XM owners maintain their cars on a tight budget using favours and spares from forum members and almost never using garages, i think the xm attracts that sort of person, certainly i consider myself to have spent probably by far the most on my single xm here, going through the service binder and adding up bills for initial purchase, modifications, parts, servicing, mot's and labour over the 9 years ive had her comes to a staggering £7-8000 but then until i got the activa last summer she was my daily driver, suddenly £1000 a year looks pretty cheap.
Do let me know if your more insane than me and have spent more.

I suspect most money is spent on xm's outside the forum circle though, a black 2.0sei i see at shows springs to mind and certainly the people who will pay £3-4k for one from a specialist dealer dont ever pop up here, i suspect there are two types of xm owner, both of them shopping in their respective sides of the price divide.

D

Dean wrote:Its a funny thing you know, almost all XM owners maintain their cars on a tight budget using favours and spares from forum members and almost never using garages,

Actually my point covered both those who run their cars on "a tight budget" and those who aren't engineers by trade, inclination or ability. If I had the skills and indeed the space and equipment to do much of the complicated work these 12 - 23 year-old cars seem to need to keep them running properly, I would, especially as the two local rural garages I used for my other 'daily drivers' in the past (most recently Xsara and ZX estates) seem somewhere between bemused and terrified of working on an XM. I am, as I wrote, impressed by and grateful for the advice and help generously given by more experienced and mechanically able forum contributors, but my growing realisation is that you can't run cars like these as you could, say, a Ford, Vauxhall or Alfa of a similar age relying on a local mechanic to do the grunt work. (Oddly if not annoyingly, this isn't so true with the Gamma which despite it's boxer engine is a more conventional (i.e. simpler) car and armed with a workshop manual I can do basic servicing and even many of the running repairs).

As an aside, I have a retired friend locally who used to own a large Citroen dealership in Birmingham who says he admires my chutzpah running an XM as a daily driver and admits that when they were current models even his own staff baulked at many of their requirements and problems because Citroen refused to fully acknowledge them and/or provide inadequate training for his mechanics!!!!! So I think I rest my case about Citroen's muddled commercial stratagems!

Sorry should read more carefully.
This does seem to be citroens problem all along, the dealer network. Even in the day the cars were not understood, now a dealer will run a mile rather than have it on the ramps like you say, there are a lot of misconceptions spawned from the dealer mechs as well, most alder guys in the dealer dont seem to fully understand how the suspension even works most of the newer ones have never even seen an XM, certainly they couldnt find why the low pressure hydraulic light was up on my activa, i found it to be the common 'O' ring seal failure of the MK2 hydractive valve which they should have seen from a mile away (being a recognised fault) but started replacing the pump, and brake valve blindly, along with hydraflush sessions.

I feel the cars are not actualy badly built at all they were just maintained by people who didnt know how to in a lot of cases. Most faults are small, easily and on the most part quickly rectified.

My xm has only let me down in the 9 years and 45k with a flat battery and a fuel pump relay, not bad really for an unreliable car.

D

Just looked up the Gamma, its a rather pretty body shape actualy, how long have you had it? must be rather rare now.

Just checked, is THIS the norm for Gamma prices?

D

Yes Dean, thanks to Pininfarina's penmanship the Gamma coupe is indeed an understatedly attractive car, especially from certain angles. I've had mine almost four years. The fleaBay example you've linked to is most optimistically priced as even the best of them, which this one – known to the Gamma Consortium (OC) – is, are lucky to command £4k. There are some 18-20 Coupes left in running order in the UK, and maybe half that number of Berlina saloons which, incidentally, closely resemble the later CX visually and share a big boxer engine! So for once the Italians led the French!

You are very lucky to buy an XM at any price that doesn't have problems but us dogged do it yourselfers work our way through them until the are all fixed (well, most of them) once you have done that they can be a very reliable car. I fitted a new head gasket on my green estate and it subsequently covered around 70,000 miles virtually trouble free - most of you know what happened to it afterwards.

The white one that I am running now I bought for £150.00 over three years ago, I spent a couple of weeks sorting it out and it has not developed any serious problems since - except that its going rusty now.

I think most people drive XMs because of the superb ride coupled with the interior space and build quality (except the electrics) I have been trying all sorts of cars in an effort to find an eventual replacement, I have come to the conclusion that its going to have to be a C5, it has the ride and space but certainly not build quality and reliability - but then the XM isn't as good as the CX.

Peter

markysimon wrote: Why or how on earth Citroen thought they could get away launching another sophisticated, if complex luxury saloon, i.e. the C6, that ignored the commercial lessons of the XM's failings, just beggars belief, but they did and I'm willing to bet that in ten years time the owners of the few C6s that are still extant will be suffering from the same scrap vs. sell-for-a-pittance vs. spend-a-fortune-to-keep-running dilemma that is the subtext of this thread.

I have a suspicion that the C6 is going to fall off the cliff at a markedly shorter time scale than the XM. Assuming the tax regime stays the same, then after 2006 the V6 versions are expensive to tax; the electronics will probably be a nightmare; FAP filters (do they have them ?); no estate version: not particularly quick or economical; haven't cracked the executive car park etc. etc. Shame, because they are a nice looking piece of kit, although I'm really not taken by the garish looking fake wooden bits.

Mike.

Dean wrote:
I feel the cars are not actualy badly built at all they were just maintained by people who didnt know how to in a lot of cases. Most faults are small, easily and on the most part quickly rectified.

I would agree. Citroen XM and ZX build quality was streets ahead of the competition at the time, indeed my two Xm I had from new were the only new cars I had that didn't have a fault within the first two weeks.
The 1991 petrol did have a few faults along the way, but the 1994 diesel was fault free all the way.